Home Politik “I’ll only believe that Mrs. Merkel is leaving when I see it“
Politik - 24.05.2019

“I’ll only believe that Mrs. Merkel is leaving when I see it“

BILD interview with Europe’s most controversial prime minister, Viktor Orbán, in Budapest.

BILD: Mister Prime Minister, all of Europe seems to be bewildered by the political earthquake in Austria – including you?

Viktor Orbán: “We don’t want to interfere in Austria’s domestic politics at all. This must be decided by the Austrian voters.”

Mister Strache visited you only two weeks ago. Are you disappointed that an ally of yours is now out of action? You were also his role model.

Orbán: “The most important thing for a politician is the trust of the people. Strache was a fighter for his cause, but he lost the people’s trust. What Strache said is unacceptable.”

Your party’s membership in the EPP group has been suspended and you no longer want to support frontrunner Manfred Weber. Whose fault is this escalation?

Orbán: “The Scandinavians and the Benelux countries. They actually wanted our exclusion from the EPP. 13 parties initiated this, three months prior to an important election – I have never seen a bigger political nonsense in my entire life. And the EPP leaders were too weak to reject it. Instead, Mister Weber stated that he does not want to become President of the European Commission with the votes of the Hungarians. That’s such an insult to the Hungarian people, the Hungarian voters, that he has become untenable as a candidate. From this point on, he cannot be supported. It’s his own fault.”

How do you explain his statement?

Orbán: “He is a weak leader. If you want to be a leader, you have to fight for your convictions. As far as I can see, Manfred Weber is a decent man, but he is not willing to fight for his own values. He adjusts. At this point, I can only see external differences between him and Social Democratic candidate Timmermans. He is no longer a conservative politician.”

Manfred Weber also visited you here in Budapest. Are you disappointed on a human level?

Orbán: “I was surprised. Disappointment doesn’t describe it, it was more of a painful feeling. I think faithfulness is also important in politics, and I supported Mister Weber at the expense of a part of my own political capital.”

Is the EPP still your political home?

Orbán: “Yes.”

Do you want to remain in the EPP family? Or are you striving towards a new alliance with far-right politicians such as Italy’s minister of the interior, Salvini?

Orbán: “That depends on the EPP. I’m doing everything I can for its success. I want the EPP to win the European Elections. But we will face a painful debate about our orientation after that. I do not want the EPP to tie its fate to the political left. The political left in Europe today is defending things that are ruining Europe, including Germany. They do not want to stop migration, but manage it. And they make suggestions for a European socialism for which the Germans will pay the price – and, to a lesser degree, also we in Central Europe, of course. Salvini is doing a good job in Italy, for example, so one should not preclude an alliance for the time after the elections.”

Is your turning away from Mister Weber also a turning away from Germany?

Orbán: “No. Europe always did well when Germany and Hungary closely cooperated. So we seek cooperation with the Germans. But the Hungarian saying is also true: We won’t jump into the well afterwards. Where something is going wrong, we won’t take part.”

Where exactly is that?

Orbán: “For instance, we won’t support the German suggestion that foreign-policy decisions in the EU should no longer require unanimous decisions, but only majority decisions. That would be the end of an independent foreign policy for countries of Hungary’s size. This is a proud country. You can convince Hungarians, but not forcefully bend them into shape. We are supporters of the Europe of Helmut Kohl, who always paid attention to the interests of the smaller countries as well.”

If you won’t support Weber, who will then be your favourite for the European Elections?

Orbán: “We will say this at the right moment after the elections, but we will certainly not be the first ones to put their cards on the table.”

You were also criticized by the head of the CSU, Söder, and the head of the CDU, Kramp-Karrenbauer, who have previously always stood by your side. Couldn’t it be the case that YOU also made mistakes?

Orbán: “Everybody who works makes mistakes. But this is about convictions and national interests. History will show who was right. There is a saying: Hungarians aren’t right – they will be in the right.” (laughs)

On posters, Manfred Weber is promoting safe external borders. That must be to your liking?

Orbán: “It is. It would be good if Europe were to support the Hungarian border protection. However, not a cent was given towards building the fence. Contradiction is a feature of European policy.”

Would you accept Frontex units at the Hungarian border?

Orbán: “No. Frontex belongs where the borders cannot be protected. We have proven that we can do this.”

The EU wants to be strong against Russia and China; it wants to act united. You, however, keep going your own way.

Orbán: “Let us look at the facts. The sanctions on Russia have led to growing trade between Germany and Russia. A Russian gas pipeline was even built leading to Germany. At the same time, Hungary’s exports to Russia decreased by 8 billion euros. From my perspective, it looks as if the big European countries have pushed us Central Europeans out of the trade and have taken our places. And all of this was then called sanctions. Something similar applies to China.”

Or is it because you actually feel closer to Russia than to the EU?

Orbán: “Russia is a different world. Our world is Europe, the West. However, I do not try telling the Russians how they are supposed to live. I also didn’t like it when they tried to tell us. Our experience is: when there is a conflict between Russia and the West, it’s always bad for Hungary. That’s why we seek a balance. We have to be strong in the areas of security and military defense, but in economic cooperation, we have to negotiate.”

Hungary’s economy is looking quite good. Still, thousands went to the streets because of your new labour law. Is the increase in prosperity not affecting enough people?

Orbán: “We have an economic growth of more than 5%, a competitive tax system, and we are approaching full employment. But we need further investments. Investments from Germany would also be welcome. At the demonstrations, I promised the people that we will adjust the law if it doesn’t work. But it is working. Sometimes it even happens that a government is right. Hence there hasn’t been a single demonstration for months.”

Last week, you visited US president Trump – a politician who is, like you, sometimes heavily criticized in Europe. Is that why you got on so well?

Orbán: “That’s one reason. (laughs) We are related in injustice: His achievements are not acknowledged, and neither are mine. This is another difference to Brussels and Europe: Donald Trump speaks a simple and easy to understand language and not this Euro gibberish. Of course, America and Hungary are different weight divisions, but we are both successful in our own leagues. The US economy is developing better than before. We also strongly agree on the issue of immigration, and we both support the fair treatment of Israel.”

Talking about Israel: you have been heavily criticized for your campaign against US investor George Soros, who is of Hungarian-Jewish descent. You were also accused of anti-Semitism in Israel!

Orbán: “You must not allow someone to hide behind his ancestry in a political discussion. That’s not correct. Our argument with Soros has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. We have a problem with casino capitalism; with NGOs that are non-transparently funded and that serve political interests; and with speculators. Yes, there were accusations in the Israeli media. But there is zero tolerance in Hungary when it comes to anti-Semitism. This is also acknowledged by Prime Minister Netanyahu. The Jewish community might be the safest here in all of Europe. This also has to do with the fact that there are no big Muslim communities here, and that the government resolutely protects the Jewish community. However, imported anti-Semitism from the Muslim world is a constantly growing problem in Western Europe.”

Surely you don’t mean to say that all Muslims are anti-Semites!

Orbán: “That would be a big insult. I do not judge groups of people. Everybody has to be assessed based on their actions. But the problem exists.”

Hungary’s economy is doing well, but the freedom of the press is getting worse.

Orbán: “People always laugh wholeheartedly about this accusation in Hungary. I am severely criticized in all media reports. It would be good if I were to get support from the Hungarian press, for a change, because they constantly oppose me. The opposition is supported by the biggest commercial TV broadcaster, RTL, the biggest news channel, ATV, the biggest daily newspaper, Népszava, the biggest online portal, Index, the biggest weekly newspaper, HVG, and the biggest tabloid, Blikk.”

Nonetheless, well-respected organisations such as “Reporters Without Borders” criticize that the freedom of the press is restricted in Hungary and that the media are brought in line. What do you reply to that?

Orbán: “That’s ridiculous. If you look at the newspapers today, you’ll see that I’m being criticized from all sides. The five big weekly newspapers were published yesterday. Three of them are badmouthing me again this week.”

So you’re saying: if a journalist criticizes you today, he or she will still have their job tomorrow?

Orbán: “These are all privately-owned press organs that we cannot, and do not want to, influence. The biggest TV station is even in German hands. Do you really think that journalists are fired there if they criticize me?”

Angela Merkel will resign from politics in 2021, at the latest. What do you think the EU will look like after Merkel?

Orbán: “I’ll only believe that Mrs. Merkel is leaving when I see it. After all, we are talking about Europe’s biggest fighter here, who has outclassed many men over the past few years. If you underestimate her, you’re wrong. And there is also a problem: she leaves a big vacuum in Europe. Ever since she has decided on a partial retreat, we are not being led in Europe at all. Europe needs a strong German chancellor with clear and firm ideas. That’s the truth, whether we like it or not. Angela Merkel has not yet left, but she is already missing.”

Can you pronounce the name Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer?

Orbán: “No, that’s very challenging even for a Hungarian.”

Could she fill the vacuum?

Orbán: “Politics is a curious world. Time and again, miracles happen. Alleged heroes fall. Others, that nobody had counted on at all, stay around for years. The baton is also in the pocket of the German head of the CDU.”

Do you know this advert for Opel where the streets of Budapest are shown to be so bad that they are proof of the toughness of Opel’s cars?

Orbán: “No, I don’t know that one. But I will think about whether there could be some truth to it. At the same time: When something is already bumpy for a German, it’s still smooth as glass for a Hungarian.”

You have continuously argued that the Central European countries Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia should be taken more seriously. Which role do you see for yourself in this alliance of the Visegrad states?

Orbán: “The alliance is headed by Poland with its strong economy and 40 million inhabitants. The era of Europe with its German-French axis is over. France, Germany, and the Visegrad states – that’s Europe’s new geometry. Politically, emotionally, and economically the Visegrad states will form a permanent alliance. The time will come when Germany will realize that it also belongs to this Central European group. This will change European politics.”

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